Striding Towards Healing Grief with Kelly Daugherty

Kelly Daugherty shares her own story of losing her mother as a child and how it has shaped her career as a social worker who now focuses on grief and loss support. You can connect with Kelly at her website: https://www.glgrief.com or at centerforinformedgrief.com.

To find Kelly's new book: "The Grief Experience: Tools for Acceptance, Resilience, and Connection", you can find it on Amazon here. 

Transcript

0:00

Hello, and welcome back to the grief Charles podcast. I am your host, Amanda. Kernaghan from, remember Graham's a small business dedicated to helping you support those in your life. Experiencing grief. I hope you'll consider sending someone a personalized card or grief support box. Uh, shipping within the us as always free. And we treat each order with special care paying attention to every detail. Today's guest that only experienced her own profound loss as a child. But then went on to build a career, helping others with their own grief. I'm so grateful to have with us Kelly Doherty, a seasoned social worker and fellow. death, dying and bereavement. She's the owner of greater life grief counseling, the center for informed grief. Cohen's healing strides, which blends emotional and physical wellbeing and has volunteered with a hospice children's bereavement program. As if this isn't impressive enough, she has a new book just released this month called the grief experience tools for acceptance, resilience, and connection, which she'll speak about later in the episode. Clearly I could talk Kelly up for awhile, but I think listening to her will allow you to hear her story for yourself, how she tells the story of her own grief and how she holds space for others. Let's take a lesson.

Mandy: 1:21

So my

Kelly: 1:21

mom was a stay-at-Home Mom, and she did some volunteer work at our church and our school, but her goal was that whatever she was doing was that she'd be home for us when we got off the bus and. She didn't drive. She never got her license. So we walked a lot of different places. And so we knew a lot of people in the community. Thankfully, a lot of people offered us rides many days, so we didn't always have to walk. But she was the kind of person that by time she got out of the grocery store, she had a conversation with the checkout person, the person in front of her in line, and the person behind her in line. Aw. And so. And as my dad says, she was the kind that would send a thank you card for a thank you card. And she was just an extremely kind soul. And when I was in seventh grade, it was Halloween day actually. And what's kind of crazy to think about is I was stressed up as a corpse for that Halloween. Oh no. And my mom had surgery that day. And she had a mastectomy because she had breast cancer, and my sister picked me up that night at the Halloween dance as me dressed as a corpse and just one scariest costume of the night award. And found out, you know, the first thing. I remember my sister walking down that hallway and me saying to her, what? How's mom? Is she gonna be okay? And she's like, yep, she's gonna be okay. But that unfortunately was not the case. And she had chemotherapy. She wanted to start chemo in January after that year because she wanted to get through the holidays. My mom was a huge Christmas fan. Every knickknack in the house went away and something came out Christmas themes and she. Just made Christmas so magical and amazing, and as my dad would tell you, when she died in July, she was still paying off the Christmas from the previous years we were spoiled at Christmas. So she started chemotherapy and went through that and had to go through the whole process of losing her hair. I remember the night we were eating spaghetti meatballs and we found a piece of her hair in our, in our meatballs, and not wanting to say anything to her because we didn't wanna upset her. But my mom also loved to dye her hair. She didn't never want it to go gray. And she was known to dye her hair the day before she was going to see her younger sister who never dyed her hair. So she always wanted to be look younger than her. So she had different color wigs that was like her thing. She would have a wig, fun wig for the winter where it was a. Darker color and then a wig for the summer where she was more blonde. That was like, I love that.

Mandy: 4:19

Yes. That's so cool. That actually reminds me of my mom. She loved to like dye her hair all the time. Mm-hmm. And so she would always have a different look it like be dark hair and then. Platinum, blonde and red and all of these different

Kelly: 4:30

colors. That's so cool. Well, she just wanted to cover the gray so she didn't look like her sister. Yeah. I've been told, I don't remember this, but I've been told that her and her other sister would get together the day before seeing their other sister and they would dye each other's hair. That is hilarious. So she went into remission and we were hopeful but unfortunately it came back worse than ever, and the cancer spread to her brain. We lived in a high ranch house on Long Island, and so it was about 12 stairs to go down to our basement, and she got lost going down the stairs. She didn't know where she was going, and her personality changed dramatically for someone who was very kind and caring and loving. Called me the girl who talked too much and was actually cursing for probably the first time in her life. My mom never cursed saying, you know, damn was a curse word to her. And when the cancer went to her brain, she started, I. You know, saying not very nice things and really her whole personality changed at that point. And you were

Mandy: 5:34

just a kid. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Are you able at that age, even to like cognitively understand? Because I feel like even as an adult, like probably for your dad, this was hard to reconcile and know that this is the disease, this is not her. But as a kid it feels so much. More personal or different, I think it's harder to like separate those things. Yeah. And

Kelly: 5:57

my sisters were seven and a half and nine years older than me. And so at this point both of'em were home. They had both graduated college and just graduated just a couple of months before my mom died from college. So I think I could understand, but I didn't wanna believe it and I didn't wanna really engage with the fact that what was going on that summer when she got really sick it, she died at the end of July of ninety-four. That summer I spent a lot of time with friends. I went to the. Their beach houses. I was out and about a lot, and I remember my sisters being upset about that, but I just couldn't be in the hospital all the time and watching my mom decline like that. And my dad really wanted to use hospice services, but he just didn't think the three of us could handle having our mom die in our home. Yeah. So unfortunately she did die in the hospital and. My sisters and I had gone to see her. My dad was at work, which is kind of crazy to even think about that. He was at work. Yeah. While this was all going on. Because we were told she had a week left to live. And during that week, like. I just thought, okay, if I keep feeding her, she's gonna stay alive. And so I kept shoving food in her face and trying to get her to eat. And obviously that wasn't gonna make a difference. She died eight days later from that conversation that we had, that we knew that that was happening. And so we had gotten to see her for the visiting hours because at that time also hospitals like. You had your two-hour window and that's all you were allowed to be there. I hope that that's different. Crazy. It's, I work at a hospital, I promise it's different. Alright, good. And we went into the hospital that day and her hands were blue and her feet were blue. Now I've worked at hospice, you know, in my later in my, in my career. And so obviously I know what that meant. And we asked one of the nurses, and the nurses wouldn't tell us and really told us that the doctor would have to call us. So, so we,

Mandy: 7:56

yeah. That's very different than how they handle it now.

Kelly: 7:59

Mm-Hmm. Yeah, so we left the hospital that day. We went to the mall, which was my mom's favorite place, and I believe that she died while we were shopping in the Gap, which is exactly what she would've wanted for us because she loved the gap. Everybody that worked at the Gap knew my mom by name, and my mom and one of our neighbors would go pretty much every Wednesday because that's when they would reduce. The sales and she would go back with her receipts and her things that she bought the week before and then get'em even cheaper. Smart. Her, her and Mrs. Powell would have these like jackets that they, they got for us for like$3 like, so I think it's very fitting that my mom probably died while we were in the gap. Aw. And we wound up at the neighbor's home, a neighbor's home that we were very close to, and my sister came running in to tell us that she had received the message on our answering machine that our mom had expired. Wow. That's

Mandy: 9:00

the phrasing we

Kelly: 9:01

used. Yep. And I was like, she's not a piece of cheese. Yeah. And so that was, you know, the beginning of a, of a very difficult time in my life. My, I don't talk a lot about this, but my dad was an alcoholic at the time. Mm-Hmm. So things were not good. At our house. And his drinking got worse and he actually kicked my sisters out about two months after my mom died. So I was stuck at home with just him and he'd be falling asleep, you know, passing out drunk. And it was so, not only did I have the grief of my mom being gone, but then I was dealing with my dad and not having my sisters there.

Mandy: 9:44

Right. You're trying to be the adult in that situation. As you're grieving'cause you just lost your mom.

Kelly: 9:50

Exactly. Yeah. And I went to an all-girls Catholic high school, which unfortunately wasn't very supportive and they actually prayed for my father who died in the very first school mass. So all the girls were coming up to me that day asking me, saying, oh, I'm so sorry about your dad. And I was like, it wasn't my dad. It was my mom. And. Honestly, to be completely vulnerable and honest. I had told my dad several times, which obviously now I regret that I wish it had been him that died instead of my mom, because my dad was the, you know, he worked, he provided for us and he drank, and so he wasn't that nurturing, loving mom, like a dad that like my mom was just, she was there, right? She was our person and.

Mandy: 10:41

And I just wanna normalize that because I think that's a very, very normal reaction after someone dies is I think that's part of like what, not that I prescribed to, like the stages of grief or anything, but Good. Thank you.

Kelly: 10:54

Yeah.

Mandy: 10:55

But when you think about, like, you will give up at, I mean, I remember I was like, I will give up anyone in my life. To have my mom back because I think also the mother-daughter bond is like so special. Not for everyone. Not everyone has a great relationship. Mm-Hmm. But it can be like one of the most special nurturing relationships. So, you know, as a kid you might look back at that and be like, oh, I feel terrible that I like, thought that and said that. But I also think for other people listening to know that like, those thoughts don't make you a bad person. And that is like part of your grief coming out. It's not. It's not you putting value on the people around you and Exactly. Weighing them against each other. Yeah, exactly. And so a few months

Kelly: 11:39

after my mom died, it was in January, my dad's drinking was probably at the all-time. Worst. And so I wrote him a letter and I left it on his dresser and I told him that if he didn't stop drinking, I was going to run away. I was really serious about that, and I don't really think I've talked about this anywhere in public about this part, but he showed up in my doorway of my bedroom and he said, I don't have a problem, but I will stop drinking. And he did. I think he was a bit of a, a dry drunk for a while because he wasn't doing anything and a couple of years later, thankfully the neighbor. We were with at the time when we got the notice that my mom died. She helped him join AA. And so my dad got into AA, still participates in AA to this day. Wow. And so he's been sober through a, been sober for twenty-nine years, but been in AA for twenty-seven years, and I am so proud of him. And he shares with every year at his anniversary about that letter that he received from me. Wow. And how much that changed his life. And I'm so proud of him. I'm so proud of the changes I've seen over these years. It hasn't always been easy. Yeah, we did. We did a lot of family counseling together and that poor counselor, Margaret, oh, I feel so bad for her. I mean, we'd be screaming at each other and she's like. She's like, I can't see you guys together anymore. Like, there's other people in this building, like, you guys are way too loud. So we went through a lot. Yeah. But I'm very, I'm very grateful for the relationship we, we still have today, so. Wow.

Mandy: 13:26

And it comes from like this brave little girl who, you know, is just a teenager and lost her mom and had the wherewithal to write that letter and to sort of confront the situation because I think. As humans, sometimes we try to avoid that kind of stuff. Mm-Hmm. And avoid conflict or avoid talking about the hard things. So Wow, that's amazing. What a great story. And I'm so glad he's open about it and tells people that story. Mm-Hmm. Yeah.

Kelly: 13:50

I am too. I'm very proud of him. So, you know, obviously my grief was. I was a hot mess. I cried myself to sleep most nights. I pulled away from a lot of friends. I didn't feel very supported from my new friends at school because. That was a new school to me, and I wasn't myself my freshman year because my mom was dying and Mm-Hmm. I didn't really know how to fit in and how to act at that time. And so, you know, after my mom died, I, I made some bad decisions, like a lot of teenagers and dated a boy that I cringe thinking about right now. We've all been there. Yeah, it was bad. I think my dad retired early because of that, he knew he needed to be home, but my dad was smart enough to know that we needed help and he got me to join a hospice grief support group and. He told me that there'd be boys at the group, which got me to go. That's great. But of course there wasn't. Darn. Yeah, exactly. But I walked into that room and there was five other girls. Who had all lost. I believe they all had had their father's die. But I still walked into that room and for the first time, I didn't feel alone in my grief and I felt like I belonged and that I wasn't the only person grieving the death of a parent. As a teenager. And obviously now we know, right? One in 12 children will have a parent or a sibling die by the time they're 18 years old. But at that time, I didn't know anybody. I was really the only one I felt like. And so that group changed my life. I met an amazing social worker named Rini. I also was the kind that I wanted to leave every week with another book. I wanted to understand what I was going through, and I think Rini probably ran out of books to give me for teens because like I just wanted to understand what was happening to me. Yes. And after I did a couple of rounds of groups with her, she asked me to start volunteering with the children's groups. Aw. And I remember some of those kids still to this day. And that's when I knew that this is what I wanted to do with my life. And so I went and I got my undergraduate in social work and my master's in social work. I worked at a couple of different hospices and. I find meaning in my grief every single day by the work that I do, and now I'm in private practice and I specialize in grief and loss and I know my mom would be so proud of me. Something positive has come out of this Mm-Hmm. Out of a huge loss that obviously I would, I would do anything to have her back. But I truly believe I've been able to help thousands of people on their grief journey because of her death. It's, such an

Mandy: 16:45

incredible. Path that you took to get there. And also, I just wanted to touch on the book thing because I think that is sometimes I don't know if it's underutilized, but I also found a lot of solace in reading other people's stories who are similar to mine and recognizing like, oh, it's not just me. I'm not the only one who thought this crazy thought or, you know, did this crazy thing and in reaction to what happened and. I don't know. It's still, I think things are better than probably when you were a child and lost your mom and it was very less talked about, you know, more quiet about grief. But we still have a long way to go and Absolutely. I mean, I was in my twenties and I remember going to Barnes and Noble and looking for books about grief and about losing your mom. And I felt, you know, there's like a shame in that and, and I was. An adult buying a book in Barnes and Noble, but I was like almost ashamed to buy those books and so, Mm-Hmm. I think, you know, the work you're doing, the work that this podcast and others are doing exactly to put out there and say like, it's okay. And it actually probably will help you feel better to read about other people's experience. Mm-Hmm. Wow. So yeah, tell me more about your work and what you're doing and do you work with kids now?

Kelly: 18:04

Kids and adults. Yep. So I do both and I volunteer with the children's Bereavement camp. Oh. So that I still stay in touch with that and

Mandy: 18:12

love that. But yeah, so I have my private

Kelly: 18:15

practice, greater life, Grief counseling. I'm in upstate New York and I do individual. Where are you grief counseling? I'm in Malta right outside of Saratoga. Oh my

Mandy: 18:23

gosh. I am in Rochester right now, but I grew up outside of Albany, so I grew up in the Detroit area. Yeah, that's so crazy. Oh, small

Kelly: 18:31

world. Yeah. But yeah, so I, I love doing individual counseling, but I love groups. Groups or my passion. That is something I offer year round two groups every week. Sometimes more. Right now I'm doing a multifamily grief group and a, I'm coping with the holidays grief group, but. My favorite is Healing Strides. And I would love to just mention this for a minute. Yeah, of course. So Healing Strides is something that my friend Lisa and I created several years ago when I worked at an agency. But we kind of were doing it with teens and mindfulness, and then when I made the transition to private practice, I was like, I'm only focusing on grief and loss now. Like this is what I wanna do. So we switched because her passion is also grief and loss. We actually met at the grief camp. Oh. We were roommates. And so our program, healing Strides is the first hour is a traditional therapeutic grief group. And then the second hour we train for a 5K race together with, and we have a group of mentors, volunteer mentors. And then at the end of the seven sessions, we all run a 5K together. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I love this. Yeah. It's amazing that,

Mandy: 19:41

yeah. You know, it's almost like combining, I was a coach for Girls on the Run. I don't know if you Mm-Hmm. Know about that organization. Mm-Hmm. Yep. So that's like younger girls who are in elementary school. And then you learn skills about how to be a good friend and how to be a good person and a human. And then you're also like running too. And then you run a 5K at the end. So it's almost like you take that and put it with something really important that's happening in their life. And how incredible is that? Because it also teaches not just kids, but adults too, that like exercise and moving Exactly. Can be incredibly healing in your grief. And it's something they can take with them for the rest of their lives. Well, and I think it's also, you know, when we're grieving,

Kelly: 20:23

it's so hard to be able to set a goal for ourself and to see something, you know, future oriented. Mm-Hmm. And so knowing that this is your goal that you're working towards, and then crossing that finish line and watching there, every race I cry on my way home from because it is. So amazing to see these women who are dealing with such significant losses and so much grief to be able to see them push themselves every week in group and then outside. And then to see them cross that finish line. We had a seventy-one-year-old woman cross that finish line. Oh wow. And she came right up to me, gave me a huge hug, and she's like. Thank you. She's like, this was always on my bucket list to do and I didn't know if I was gonna do it. And then behind me was her daughter and her granddaughter with a sign holding up for her grandma, and it was like, I just like bust. I just burst into tears. At that point I was like, oh my gosh. Like this is what it's about. Yeah. And so we actually now are doing an official research study on the program

Mandy: 21:26

because that's what I was gonna ask. I was like, is this being replicated elsewhere?

Kelly: 21:29

cause it should be. Yes. So that is our goal. We got we got that approved literally the day before this, the fall cycle this year, so, wow. Thankfully. And our goal is to be able to get this out to the masses because it, from doing this from years and now a lot of our. Mentors are actually past participants that have come back to volunteer their time. Oh

Mandy: 21:54

my gosh. This is like, and I feel like you're pulling different parts of my world together talking about this, and it's so cool. I. I don't know how familiar you are with addiction recovery. I know you mentioned your dad is in AA. Yeah. But my brothers both struggled with addiction and there's a local organization to me that is focused on fitness as part of your recovery journey. Yeah. And it's all like peer-led and peer-supported. And yeah, it's like, reminds me a little bit of this model. Yeah. And it literally changes people's lives, like people are. So different Absolutely. After like, going through these programs. So I, I'm just so excited that you're doing this kind of work and that it, now you're gonna have the research to back it up and then it can just Exactly. Spread like wildfire, hopefully. Exactly. Well,

Kelly: 22:39

and you know, we've been doing pre and post tests all along and our results are amazing. And that's what the, one of the mentors, she's a psychologist, she's like, Kelly, these results are really good. Like, we need to do something with this. And I was like, okay, like, what do you wanna do? She's like, we're, we're. We're submitting an IRB proposal, like let's do it. And I was like, okay. Like wow.

Mandy: 22:59

Yeah. I can see this definitely being presented at like a national conference and then it, and then it being modeled all over the place. Which it should be. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes I, sometimes I think that we have therapy so separated from other things that can help and like having that integrated. I don't know. It just has a better impact. Well, and the friendships that they form

Kelly: 23:22

with each other,'cause you know, they're sharing, they're vulnerable and then they go outside and they're moving their bodies with these women and to be able to be outside and laugh. And I, one of the post-tests said, I never leave healing strides without a smile on my face. Wow. Who says that about a grief group? Yeah. And, you know, in grief groups, nobody wants to have to go to a grief group. It's not a a group that anybody wants to have to be there. But if you're gonna have to be there and you can leave with a smile on your face, then I feel like it was worth all of our time.

Mandy: 23:59

How do you. Advertise your program, and how many people do you usually have in a cohort?

Kelly: 24:05

So it depends. You know, this past season we had eight women. The spring we had 14 women. Wow. So it, it just ranges. A lot of'em, you know, could potentially be my clients. But Word has definitely gotten out in the community about this, so more and more therapists are referring, and I've even heard some school districts have talked about it at like their back to school night with their, their, with their teachers and staff. So it's getting out there and I just hope it continues to grow. And Lisa, the running coach, is trying to get me to do a healing Strides level two, where we would do, a half marathon or a 10 K. Yes. And I'm like, oh, I, I don't call myself a runner. I, I may run during healing strides, but I'm not a runner. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't know if I can do that. Lisa. She's like, yes, you can. I'm like, I don't know. So I'll see what happens there. I'm with her.

Mandy: 25:00

You could definitely do

Kelly: 25:01

it.

Mandy: 25:02

And how incredible would it be to do it with people who, you know, you're there helping and everybody is striving for the same thing.

Kelly: 25:09

Yep, exactly. Oh,

Mandy: 25:11

wow. I love hearing about this. It's so incredible. All right. What kind of advice do you give to, to clients who are in this, this space of like deep.

Kelly: 25:23

Well, I think first you have to lean into your grief. You have to feel your grief. Grief is something that you have to feel. You can avoid it all you want. It will come back. Mm-Hmm. And I tell a story about somebody that I know it took 30 years to come back, but it did. And so it is really about sitting with a grief, feeling it, obviously, yes, you need to take breaks from your grief. Right. But I'm a big, I'm a big fan of the dual process model, right? That oscillation between loss oriented and restoration oriented, and how throughout the day. Even minutes, we can go back and forth between those two mm-Hmm. And so, and I think grief groups, I think in my opinion, sometimes grief groups are more effective than individual counseling. Interesting. And so I think that is to be able to have that network of people where you can walk into a room and if they ask you How are you, you don't have to lie and say, I'm okay. They know you're not. Okay. And you can be like, today's really crappy, and that's okay. Mm-Hmm. And that they're able to hold that space for you so you can be vulnerable and honest. And I always say the very first night of a grief group, you do not need to apologize for crying in here. Right. Because as soon as they start crying, they, oh, I'm so sorry. You are, if you can't cry in a grief group, where can you cry? Right. So it's. I also think you have to sometimes do some trauma work. Mm-Hmm. I'm trained in EMDR in Progressive County and we tend to get caught up on the death. How they died, maybe if we witnessed it or what we've imagined in our brain happened, right? So many people have heard enough information that they've created this like false memory in the brain of what HA has happened, and then we can't focus on the person's life. We are focusing on that death. And so doing even one session of progressive counting one day can really decrease that and get them to be able to focus on their loved one's life. And I think that is so important because, you know, our brains are like Velcro to the bad and Teflon to the good, right? So our brains are gonna wanna stick to that ending, but that's not how we wanna remember people. Mm-Hmm. Right. You know, and I did, when I got trained in progressive counting, I'm the kind that when I go to my trainings, I'm gonna work on all of my stuff because I'm like, oh, this is free therapy. Why not? And so I did my mom's death, and when I got trained in progressive counting 10 years ago, I. I was, I was a mess during that session, but I still, to this day, 10 years later, it doesn't, when I think about my mom and that bed and when she went after seeing her when she died, I don't have that reaction that I did before doing that

Mandy: 28:05

work. Wow. Can you explain briefly what progressive counting is? Yeah, so it is

Kelly: 28:11

a fairly newer trauma treatment resolution treatment. It's been, obviously I got trained in it 10 years ago, so it's not that new, but it's just not as well known as EMDR eye movement, desensitization reprocessing. Mm-Hmm. And you watch the memory like a movie in your mind, while the therapist counts out loud, and you keep doing that over and over again. You add more time each time, so the movie gets longer. And what happens is it desensitizes you to that memory and you're able to think about that memory and not have that emotional maybe, like for me, I'm a, I always get that feeling in my stomach. That's where I always know something. Like that's where I feel it. So you can think about that memory, not get that feeling. Anymore and that, and what I hear so many of my clients say is that after doing progressive counting, they're not thinking about that death scene anymore. It's not coming up in their mind as much. Maybe the flashbacks have stopped, maybe the intrusive thoughts, maybe the nightmares. And I find that even clients that don't even get down to the zero for the suds, the subjective units of distress are still reporting a significant change from one session to the next.

Mandy: 29:23

Wow. I love that you have such a variety of methods that it sounds like you work with clients on. I think, I mean, everyone's different, but I obviously went to therapy after my mom and my brother's death, and really the only thing that I was offered was talk therapy. And so I, I actually have interviewed a lot of people and they, there are a lot of different modalities out there, and I also don't think people realize that. And so if they're going to a therapist and the only thing that's being offered is talk therapy, people don't even know that they can ask about other options. And how do we find groups and how do we find people that are offering these different ways that you can work through it?

Kelly: 30:01

I think one of the things that's really important to mention is not every therapist is grief informed. Mm-Hmm. About 60% of therapists did not have any education, undergraduate or graduate school on grief and loss. My social work department did not offer that. I went to the religion department. I went to the nursing department.'cause obviously I was interning to hospice. Like I knew that this is what I wanted to do with my life. When you're seeking out a therapist. Mm-Hmm. Making sure that they are comfortable because even therapists, they're just not comfortable with it. They don't wanna work with grief and loss. Finding a grief-informed therapist is so important. And also asking like, what do you believe? I, I cringe. Well, I'm so glad you said about the five stages,'cause that's like my biggest pet peeve. Yeah. And I could get on a soapbox about that for a minute. I'll try not to, but yeah, that's fine. They, it's not accurate, right? And when therapists are telling their clients about the five stages, that is not helpful to them. It can make them think they're doing their grief wrong. And I, I will tell my grief groups, if your therapist is talking about the five stages, you may wanna consider looking for a new therapist. And I say finding a therapist is like finding a bathing suit for a woman. Sometimes the first one you try on fits perfectly. Sometimes you have to keep trying'em on until you find the right fit. So if you are, your listeners are grieving and they're looking for therapists, it's okay to change if it's not a good fit. Yeah, you have to find somebody that's gonna be able to help you and not keep you in therapy forever.

Mandy: 31:35

It doesn't. I would also just add, because I remember when I was looking for a therapist, it doesn't matter if it says in their bio that they focus on grief because. They still might not be a great fit, or you might be like, exactly. Maybe they don't know as much about grief as I had imagined, or they're not the good, they're not a good fit for me. So I think it's saying it's okay to switch or when specialize in everything. Yes, yes. They specialize in everything. It was one, it was definitely one of those. Yeah.

Kelly: 32:01

I'm like really to really specialize in everything. Right. So, you know, one of the things that I've always wanted to do was write a grief book. Mm-Hmm. And last year I was approached by somebody to be part of a collaborative book, Polistic Mental Health. And I wrote about my mom's death in that book. And it was really interesting to me, twenty-eight years later to see the grief that surfaced for me writing that chapter. I mean, I talk about this all the time. Like, this is not nothing Right. New, but to write it out like that and to go back through some of it, it was. It was really interesting and just a really good reminder that grief isn't something we get over, but it is something we learn to live with and integrate into our lives, and so I'm really excited to share that. I decided to do my own collaborative book, which will be coming out in February, 2024. Congratulations. Thank you called the Grief Experience Tools for Acceptance, resilience, and Connection. And I am, I have to be honest, I am so blown away with this book because it's twenty-five authors of all different kinds of grief. Mm-Hmm. So there's anticipatory grief, there's ambiguous loss, there's traumatic grief, there's divorce, there's infertility there. My goal really was that whoever picks up this book is gonna be able to relate to at least one person. And I finally got the draft of all the chapters two weekends ago, and I sat down and read it and like bawled, like every chapter is so amazing and so vulnerable. And then also the authors share a tool. That has helped them on their personal grief journey and also can hopefully help the readers. And so I really, I'm so excited for it to come out. I think it's gonna be a really great addition, like we've talked about both of us, like our grief books. Yes. And I'm really hoping that it's gonna be one that can, people can really benefit from and really find it beneficial and helpful.

Mandy: 33:53

And what's the name of the book again?

Kelly: 33:55

It's called The Grief Experience Tools for Acceptance, Resilience and Connection. Awesome.

Mandy: 34:01

You know, I too. I find writing about our grief to be one of those other really helpful mechanisms. Mm-Hmm. And it is a different experience.'cause I've talked about my grief a lot, but once I sat down and wrote about it, I think you process it differently in your mind. And it is a little bit of going back into it, which I think can be difficult because in a way it's like you're reliving that experience as you write it. But once I got it out onto the page. It definitely shifts. I think it, it's like a healing. It's very

Kelly: 34:34

healing. Oh, it's so amazing. Yeah. And that's what I kind of warned all of the authors about for this book. I was like, it's gonna bring up some stuff like Mm-Hmm. And so we did a lot of like check ins. I offer breathwork sessions to them after our chapters were due and just to try to. You know, give them some support around it because I know what I went through last year and Mm-Hmm. And they did. They were, it's'cause you're, especially a lot of these people are therapists and they're sharing their really vulnerable stories with the world. And that part I think, freaked them out the most was like, oh my gosh. Like my clients could read this. Like the whole world could read this. And I was like, yeah, but how amazing that is. Like, I think that's the best part about it, is your words are gonna truly be able to help somebody. And there's so many, every author is so different in the book. It's, we have a medium, we have a funeral director, we have somebody talking about the power of prayer. So everybody, like, I really think everybody's gonna be able to relate to someone.

Mandy: 35:33

Wow, that's incredible. I can't wait to get my hands on it and read it. I like to have as many resources as I can available to like refer people to. So yeah,

Kelly: 35:43

that's perfect.

35:45

I hope you enjoyed listening to Kelly share her story and her years of wisdom when it comes to moving through grief. Links to her book and where you can find her will be in the show notes. For today's journal prompt. Write about the intersection of your grief and moving your body. Let the writing take you in any direction at Leeds. Thank you so much for listening, please make sure you subscribe, share this episode with anyone who could benefit from it. And as always. Does it remember grams? Anytime you need to send a little love to someone who is grieving. Thank you and have a wonderful day.