When Surrogacy and Grief Intersect with Kelila Green

Join us as Kelila Green- mom, surrogate, and pregnancy loss survivor- shares her story of surrogacy and grief. Kelila is host of the podcast, "Pushing Through Loss", a speaker, and founder of Ours and Yrs- a pregnancy loss survival toolkit.

You can connect with Kelila on Instagram @OursandYrs, or on Facebook @Kelila Beth Green, or on her website: www.kelilagreenspeaker.com

Transcript

Mandy: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the Grief Trails podcast. I'm your host Amanda Kernighan from Remembergrams, a small business dedicated to helping you support those in your life experiencing grief. I hope you'll consider sending someone a personalized card or a grief support box. Shipping within the U. S. is always free and we treat each order with special care, paying attention to every detail. Today on the podcast, we are talking about the experience of becoming a pregnancy surrogate, and what happens when grief factors into that experience. How do you reconcile your choice to help with the demands it makes on your body? And what happens when the outcome is not what anyone had planned? What happens when you Are left to do the emotional work that comes with grief for a baby you are growing for another couple To walk us through this experience is kalila green a mom a surrogate and a pregnancy loss survivor She is founder of ours and yours a pregnancy loss survival toolkit a speaker and host of the podcast pushing through loss Here's her story

Kelila: 1:01

So I had gotten married in 2010 and thankfully got pregnant pretty much right away. My daughter was born literally nine months. minus a day to our wedding date. And, and everybody before they knew I was pregnant, everybody warned me and they were like, it's going to take you a long time to get pregnant. Be careful. Like it took me a long time. This is my horror story. This is my awful birth and labor story. And, and I, I've always loved that stuff. I love anything that has to do with pregnancy. I love anything that has to do with labor and delivery. Ever since I was a kid, I've just been fascinated by the fact that our bodies can do that. It's incredible. It really is. So when I got pregnant right away, it was one of those that I was like, thank God. I just felt like that was what I was put here to do in a way. Mm-Hmm. and had a very easy time being pregnant. I didn't get any of the weird symptoms. I didn't have preeclampsia, I didn't have any sort of medical conditions, and it was all. By the book, totally smooth sailing, and I felt so blessed. And then when we decided that we wanted to try and have our second sort of the same thing, it took us a little bit longer. I had been on I think I was on an IUD and they took it out and it took us about six months to sort of understand what my ovulation cycle was at that point. And it was, it was about 18 months after my daughter had been born. So it was a decent amount of time. And then it took us a little while and thank God again, when I got pregnant, it was one of those where it was completely by the book. The only thing that we had an issue with was at the very end, my doctor kept saying, this baby's going to be big. And he went a week over my due date. And ironically, he was only, like, two ounces or something more than my daughter. So when he kept saying he was going to be big, I was like, all right, I'll believe it when I see it. And then when he wasn't even that much bigger than my daughter was at a full week later, I was like, okay, so note to self for next time.

Mandy: 2:52

Yeah. I don't think those predictions are ever very accurate.

Kelila: 2:55

No. I've heard that from

Mandy: 2:56

so many people. And I remember when I was pregnant, I don't think the prediction they gave me was even close.

Kelila: 3:02

Yeah, and even down to the due date, like the due date is a guess. So the fact that I went a week over was sort of like, well, really, was it a week? Was it less than a week? Who knows? It's as much as doctors know, I feel like they know very little. Yes. So then again, like my My son was about 16 or 17 months old, and I thought, you know what, I'd really love to have another, my husband was on board, and it took me, again, about six months to get pregnant, and the third time around, same thing, everything was completely normal, no preeclampsia, no swelling, no morning sickness, nothing of the sort, and He was actually a week early and I remember saying to my husband while I was a labor, I was like, I feel cheated out of a week of pregnancy. My husband was like, you're crazy. And he was, he was my hardest labor and delivery. I was in labor with him for just over 19 hours. And it took me, I went into labor about 5 o'clock in the morning and it took me until like 6. 30 that night to finally say, okay, I've had enough, I need an epidural. And with my daughter, when I gave birth to her, I also, I went about 13 hours without an epidural. And at that point, once I got the epidural, my body just relaxed and I gave birth to her about an hour and a half later. With my third, he was like, no, no, I I'm, I'm good. And he stayed in, I got it around six 30 and he wasn't born until just after midnight. So even with the epidural, it was still a little bit longer. But again, totally easy, totally fine. I felt like it was my superpower and I was like, I can grow humans like that. So at the time, my husband and I lived in Los Angeles, and it was obviously very expensive in terms of, of quality of life, and I really wanted to be pregnant again, but I wasn't really ready to say that I wanted to have another child, and so we started looking into surrogacy. Because I thought that if, if I had such an easy time being pregnant, then how could I not look into being able to do that for someone else? And my husband and I are both religious, we're, we're Orthodox Jewish. And it was something that we had to discuss with the rabbis to find out what it then meant for my children. How were they related, if at all? Was it genetically related or was it I don't know. religiously related? Did the laws of the Torah apply to surrogacy? How did that affect this? And it's so crazy to think that, you know, the Torah was written, whether you think it's written by man or by God, it was written over 2000 years ago. And it still applies to today, like the rabbis can still garner information and say, Oh, look, we have IVF, and we have surrogacy, and we have adoption, and we can still figure out what those laws mean for 2023, or at the time, you know, 2018. So we got all the information and it turned out that we could in fact be surrogate parents. It had to be for a Jewish family because any baby that I then birth becomes a Jewish baby. And so I would give it to a Jewish family or give it, I guess, back to a Jewish family. And I ended up finding through a vast series of, of what I felt like. really God talking directly to me, the right couple. And we connected over Zoom through the fertility agency that they had gone through, or I guess the surrogacy agency they had gone through. And instantaneously we were like, that's the right couple. And they wanted to meet us in person. So they came out to LA and we just hit it off. We just felt like we had known each other forever. And I ended up getting pregnant in the end of February of 20. 19 and then gave birth in December of 2019. It was, it was an incredible experience. It was one of those where the first question people ask me is always, what was it like giving up a baby? And I, in my head, I automatically think I didn't give up a baby. It wasn't anything right. Because first of all, even getting pregnant, you have to go through the whole IVF process, which is not something I had ever experienced with my own pregnancy. So even from the start, I felt like I knew this wasn't mine. I knew that it was their embryo. It was something that I was comfortable with. I had discussed it with my therapist. I discussed it with my husband. So it wasn't like I was giving a baby up. I was really giving it back, which felt incredible. So even while I was in labor with that baby the parents and I both are all agreed that we wanted to try again. And again, my husband wasn't like, you're a nut. And he's like, I think the parents at one point said to me while I was trying, pushing the baby out. Like, are you sure you're pushing our child out and you still want to do this again? And I was like, yes, I love it. So with, with COVID, it was a little bit of like a mixed blessing where we couldn't really do anything because I had to let my body rest and heal and recover from carrying a baby and giving birth to then saying, okay, well, we need to figure out the unknowns. The doctors have a lot to figure out with how COVID affects the mom, how COVID affects the baby, all that kind of stuff. Kind of stuff. So in January of 2022, I was given the green light to be able to go ahead and do IVF one more time. And I went in in May for the transfer and everything was going great. When you're pregnant with a surrogate baby, they treat it like a high risk pregnancy. So you have to go in every week for the first trimester to make sure. Yeah, that the baby implanted properly and that the heartbeat is strong and that it's growing normally and all that kind of stuff. And everything indicated that the baby was doing great. And I graduated from the high risk doctor and got moved to my doctor at, I think they considered it full first trimester at 10 weeks. And I'd moved over and I went for a 10 week checkup and then I went for a 12 week checkup. And then they said, okay, come back at 16 weeks. That's when we would normally see you anyway. So we scheduled that. And at 16 weeks and five days, I went in. I thought I was going in for a normal checkup. I even had all three of my kids with me thinking we were going to get to see the baby's heartbeat and get to be able to see on the ultrasound. And we get into the appointment room and thank God for technology because my kids were on their iPad and we're not paying attention at all. And the nurse I was getting this look on her face like I can't find the heartbeat with Doppler. And at first I, because this was my fifth pregnancy, it was one of those where I sort of, you sort of know, right? You get to that point where, you know, the normal things, you know, okay, sometimes I know it's difficult to find the heartbeat and I wasn't panicking yet, but when I looked at her face after a few minutes and she said, I think I'm going to go get the doctor. That's when my heart started racing. And the doctor came in. And said, I want you to go right to the next examination room where the ultrasound machine is. And at that moment, I, I just, I sort of had that instinct of knowing, but I was really trying to deny it. And I said to my kids, okay, we're just moving to the next room. And my daughter, who at the time was 11, perked up and was like, why? I said, they're just going to check everything with the ultrasound. So my boys happily went to the next room. They didn't care. And I laid down on the table and they put the ultrasound machine on. wand on my belly and in seconds the nurse like looked at me and shook her head and I was like What? What? I need words. And she said, I can't find a heartbeat. And I, I, I don't know. I think I, I was just in shock. I didn't really process what was going on. I couldn't quite comprehend what she was saying, but I sort of knew what she was saying all at the same time. And, and I kept thinking in my head, what do you mean there's no heartbeat? Of course there's a heartbeat. Like I, I was having pregnancy symptoms yesterday and today and my belly is still growing and how could there not be a heartbeat? And she said The baby is measuring smaller than 16 weeks, which is where you should be now. And there's no heartbeat. I, you either, I need to call the doctor or you need to go to the hospital. And the doctor came in and started going over everything and he started checking and he confirmed that there was no heartbeat. And I said, so what, what do I do? I like, I needed everything laid out step by step. My daughter at that point had come over and Realize something was up and she put her hand on my shoulder and she said, is everything okay? And I just started shaking my head and and sobbing. And the doctor said, do you need to call your husband to come pick you up? Do you need, you need to go to the hospital, but you also need to get a bag because we don't know how long you're going to be in the hospital for. So I remember calling my husband and, and just not even being able to get the words out. He asked me if he needed to come pick me up and I said, no, I, I think I can make it home. I don't know how I made it home, but I know I did. I got my kids in the car. I remember talking to my mom, I talked to my husband and the parents were in a meeting. So I had left them a text message saying, call me or something along those lines. And as I put my hand on my doorknob to my front door, the mom's name popped up on my phone. And and I. Picked it up and just started sobbing and and I don't I'm not even sure if I open the door I think I sort of collapsed in front of the door and my husband came out and saw me and Guided me inside and I just remember sitting at the foot of my bed. Like I don't know what to say I don't know what to do. I know I'm I need to be there for her But she also I want her to be there for me and this is her baby, but I'm the one growing it There were so many things that were swirling in my head So I don't remember how long I was on the phone with her for, but I know that I ended up going to the hospital. My husband asked me if I wanted to have my kids go to someone's house, or if he wanted me, or if he wanted him to stay with the kids. And I said, honestly, I think it's better if you stay with the kids because I know that I can take care of me. The doctors and the nurses are taking care of me. And I don't know what to do with my kids if they're now dropped off at a house and they're like, what's going on? But now we don't have either parent with us. So he went home with them. I got checked in and they gave me mesopropanol to start labor. And It took about 24 hours for it to actually kick in and start working. And I had the baby the next day, but then I was

Mandy: 13:13

alone without your husband.

Kelila: 13:15

Yeah.

Mandy: 13:16

Oh,

Kelila: 13:17

but, but I had the most incredible team of nurses where I knew, I knew I needed my husband home with the kids. Like to me, that was more comforting than having him there. But the, the nurse that was with me, I had two, incredible nurses. One's name was Angela, and I remember her name because I kept thinking she's such an angel. And the other one, I think her name was Sharon. And the only reason I remember that one is because that's my best friend's sister's name. And she was so similar to my best friend that every time she squeezed my hand, I kept thinking my best friend is here in the room with me, even though she lives across the country from me. So thank God for them, because if I didn't have those two nurses, I would not have made it through in one piece, I think.

Mandy: 13:59

So, the parents who you were being a surrogate for, this is the same couple that you were a surrogate for for the previous pregnancy?

Kelila: 14:07

Yeah.

Mandy: 14:08

So you had like a long term relationship with them?

Kelila: 14:11

Yeah.

Mandy: 14:11

And were they present for the first birth?

Kelila: 14:14

They were. They flew out to LA. We don't live in the same state. And so they came to LA where I had the first baby about two weeks before my due date. So they were both in the room for most of the labor. The husband stepped out while I actually pushed. But then he came in, the doctor covered me up and he came in to cut the cord. And then once I had done that, I think once I had delivered the placenta, he then was allowed into the room in general, but they were not there when I went to the hospital this time.

Mandy: 14:45

Oh, that's so hard because you're so far away. They don't, I'm sure they almost didn't even have an option to get there.

Kelila: 14:52

No. And, and it was so quick that it wasn't like there was time for them to get there anyway. And it, and I think like people often say when I tell them my husband wasn't in the room for the first. Surrogate birth either. I'm like, he's, he's useless in the delivery room. We had such a strong team of people for the first birth. I had my doula. I had my best friend. I had the mom. I had my doctor and the nurses like he would have been totally useless. So that's sort of where my brain went. Also, when I had to be rushed in because he likes to look at the machines and he likes to ask questions where I'm just like, just let me do what I need to do. I just need to, you know, Get the baby out and and that's it. Like, I don't need all the extra stuff.

Mandy: 15:33

Do you think that if the pregnancy had been yours and your husband's pregnancy that he would have, that you would have wanted him there?

Kelila: 15:40

Probably. For the

Mandy: 15:41

experience.

Kelila: 15:42

Probably. Because he was there for every one of our own children's birth. And I think that if it was, Our own that I was that I had lost. I think he would have felt differently about being in the room. Also, whereas he knew it was more important for him to be home with our kids and not with. Trying to figure out what because again, like we didn't have to figure out any of the after care for the baby We didn't have to figure out autopsy or or Burial or or anything like that? That was all up to the parents So the only thing that I really had to do is make sure that they were Up to date and understood what was going on so that we could they could then communicate what their wishes were.

Mandy: 16:26

Okay. So the parents were able to choose to get memorial.

Kelila: 16:30

Yeah,

Mandy: 16:31

after the birth and everything.

Kelila: 16:32

Yeah. And so I was in the hospital for 2 full days. I ended up having to go in for a DNC also because. My placenta wasn't detaching from the wall of my uterus, so I was losing too much blood and they said we have to put you under and I just remember thinking as I was getting put under, a long time ago, I had my tonsils taken out, but I had, I was, I was in my early 20s and it was one of those where the nurse, as I was getting put under said to me, if you think about happy things, then you'll dream about happy things and you'll wake up Feeling happier. So I remember at the time I was dating my husband and I kept just saying his name in my head and I remember waking up being like, I had such a good dream. So this time I was like, okay, I, I just need to keep repeating my kid's names and my husband's name. And even though I was in such a dark place, I knew that if I kept saying their names, it would stay there. still give me a little bit of an edge to feel better. And when I woke up again, this is where my nurses were absolutely incredible because the nurse let me keep my phone up until the last second of me going under. So I was able to talk to my husband almost as I was going to sleep. And then she was there with my phone, right? When I woke up and said, do you want to call your husband? And, and that to me just meant the world because I was like, even though he's not here, I still feel like we're connected in that way. Which I don't know that she should have done or shouldn't have done, but whatever it was, I was grateful for that moment.

Mandy: 17:57

Yeah. Wow. So after this all happened and you were able to leave the hospital and go home and start recovering your body physically, what was the experience for you emotionally knowing that you were. Pregnant as a surrogate and how do you think that was different or how does it I know you haven't had a pregnancy loss of your and your husband's. So I guess you can only speculate but I'm curious as to how that might impact the kind of grief that you're feeling did you feel like you failed the parents and feel any kind of guilt in that way.

Kelila: 18:36

100%. I. I asked every what if. I felt like it was completely my fault. I went through every single thing I ate. I went through every single thing I did. I went through every, every, even person I talked to, or, or trail I walked, or car ride I had, or whatever, to be like, was that too bumpy? Did I do this wrong? Did I eat this? Did I not do that? Did I forget my prenatal vitamin on that day? Or, or whatever it was. Every little thing I felt like, I had to find a reason, because there was no reason. It's not even like the doctors found a reason in the end anyway. And so I 100 percent felt like my body had failed me. And it's weird to think now, because this, the statistic is that one in four pregnancies will end in a loss. And so that was my fifth pregnancy. So I felt like I was already sort of going against the statistic. And then now that I'm, I'm part of it, I was like, Oh, I'm really not immune to it. It's not like you can just float by and say, no, there's a reason those statistics exist and, and, and you can't ignore them. So it, it was, it was rough. The first few weeks, I was definitely a mess. I deep. Dived into the internet, Pinterest, every sort of form of article I could read about miscarriage and loss and what to do afterwards and who to talk to and who to find. And there just wasn't a lot of information. There was one resource that I am so grateful for that my hospital gave me and it was sort of almost an off handed resource. packet that they gave me and said, you can go through this when you're ready. And one of the numbers that was in there was a therapist who had also experienced a stillbirth. His wife had given birth at 32 weeks, and so he had started a group called Heal, and he gets, I think it's two or three times a year, and so he's able to get together a group, almost like, like a pregnancy loss support group, but it's seven weeks, and you have to commit to every single week, and it's a two hour long class. Where we did it all on zoom, fortunately, it was people that are all in the area. So I've met some of them since, but we were able to really understand each other in a way that you just don't feel like the rest of the world can. And he said, one of the things that he experienced when he was driving home from the hospital after his wife gave birth, which I think each of us related to was. He had lost his child and the world just kept going. And he was like, I don't understand how nobody else is angry, how nobody else understands the pain I'm going through. And, and I am so alone in this moment. And I think that was where each of us said, Oh, my gosh, that is exactly how I felt. But if you felt that, then obviously we're not alone in that moment. And it, this group was one that we still, we have a text chain that we're all still close with each other. There has been subsequent births in that text. And that group since and it's so wonderful to see life continuing, but to still be able to honor the babies that we know aren't here that you don't normally get to do with just your regular group of friends. So that resource in and of itself was a godsend. I don't know that if, you know, with all of my other research and the things even that I've created, if I didn't have that, I don't know that I would be where I am now because of the growth that I was able to accomplish through that.

Mandy: 22:03

Yeah, I think the The support that you can get from other people who've had similar losses is You can't compare it to anything else because there's something so profound in just talking to someone who can honestly say, I get it. And they really do, because even though everyone's experience is a little bit different, there are some real commonalities when you have a certain type of loss. And I do think there's a big stigma about joining groups specifically support groups, people feel weird about it, but. I've talked to so many people on this podcast and a lot of people bring up support groups and then they have the most incredible experience and meet people that become friends and become a part of their life from, from that point on. And so I always want to try and emphasize that it's okay to join a support group. And it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you and it doesn't mean you're not grieving correctly or that you're stuck. And you know, it, it, It might not be for you, but give it a try because it might be, and it might be something that, you know, really helps you like you said, you don't think you would be where you are today and your entire process if it weren't for that group. So,

Kelila: 23:14

exactly. And I think that it's something where even because I started my own podcast since and the first interview I had was actually somebody from the group, and there were things that she. told me in the podcast interview that she didn't even share with the group at the time. And I thought, Oh my gosh, if you had shared this with everybody, it's, it's also one of those where you don't feel so crazy because you don't feel like. my grief is any worse or better or that you're doing things that are weird or if you had this one thought that nobody else had that thought or if you did this one thing that made you feel better that nobody else ever did that and you're like, no, everybody else is going through the same thing. So when she shared those bits of information, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is priceless.

Mandy: 23:57

Yeah, I love that. So Yeah, what have you done since all of this happened, and how does your life look different? You mentioned that you have a podcast now,

Kelila: 24:07

I do. So it's been a year and a half, and I, I'm a DIYer, so anything that I can Get my hands on. I realized I was reorganizing my desk a few months ago, and I was looking over all of my projects. And I was like, Oh, each of my stress points. I can point to exactly which thing I picked up to be like, I can learn to knit. I can learn to crochet. I can learn to do whatever it was that I was like, I'm stressed out. I need to DIY. So that is what I dove into. And I figured I found all these amazing resources. through this heel group, through my deep dive in the internet, through other therapists that I'm friendly with, through friends that I know who have gone through therapy. And even one of the things that's one of my absolute favorite activities is something that my best friend's daughter taught me a long time ago that I've implemented with my own kids. And it's something that's not even necessarily a healing tool, but it's just a great resource to have. So with all of that, I created a pregnancy loss toolkit. And the resource that I always talk about the most, which is that one that my best friend's daughter taught me was she creates a grid for the year. It doesn't matter where you start in the year. You could start on January 1st or wherever, but you create a box for all 365 days and you label each emotion that you could feel with a different color. So, I always like to do anger is red, blue is happy, purple is calm, things like that. And every day, the end of the day, you color in that square that corresponds to the day with the color of the emotion that you felt. as an overwhelming feeling. And sometimes it could be, okay, you split the box in half and you say, well, in the morning, I was feeling this emotion, but towards the end of the day, I really had switched. And sometimes it is one emotion, but you can look back on it and you can see each individual day. And in the process of grief, it really helped me understand that every day was separate from the next, because as you know, when When you're going through something like that, everything sort of melts together and weeks turn into months that could turn into years. And the next thing you know, you turn around, you're like, what just happened to the last few years of my life? So this was a great resource that I really felt like separated each day. And I could look back and say, Literally a tapestry of the last few weeks. What overwhelming emotion was I feeling? Was I feeling like more days were better? Was I feeling like more days were bad or whatever it was? And I could reach out and get help if I felt like there was more bad days as opposed to good days.

Mandy: 26:42

Yeah. And I love that it can give you a bird's eye view because progress can be so slow and healing can take so long that sometimes you feel like I'm never going to be happy again and I'm never going to have good days, but as you see more and more show up in your grid and the colors start to change a little, that I think can give people hope like, Oh, you know, maybe I am working my way through it.

Kelila: 27:04

Right, right. And some days you'll say, Oh, yesterday was a really awful day. But you know what? Today, I actually had some really great moments. So maybe I can put that I was feeling more happy today. So it is, it is a total bird's eye view. And it's like I said, it's not an exercise that I ever got. originally from going through any sort of traumatic experience. It was something that my best friend's daughter had found and I was like, I love that. I need to include that. So in the toolkit, there's a whole workbook with various different activities like that one. There's some journaling exercises and some coloring in general. And just some affirmations in a space to write your own affirmations in your own words. And there's also just some items in the toolkit itself to make you feel like you're getting a hug from somebody who cares with some chocolate and a mug and An eye mask and things like that. And then I, I became a speaker because I want to be able to help other people. I think that the whole point of me going through this was that I realized everybody goes through life and and sort of accumulates their own traumas and accumulates their own baggage. And my feeling is, is that it's all about how you learn to carry it. That makes you who you are. It shouldn't define you, but it can be a part of you. And if you can get to that understanding, There's so much healing on the other side because you do have to continue living just because the baby's not here doesn't mean that my life ends, and I can't live in that wallow and that grief and that sorrow constantly, of course, I still hurt and of course I still feel like, oh my gosh, what if I did this and what if I did that, but I'm never going to. Live if I continue to live in the what ifs.

Mandy: 28:40

Right.

Kelila: 28:41

And so I sort of switched it and I say, I have to look at the what nows because otherwise I will go into a hole that will, I will never get out of. And so that's where I, I moved into that speaking role. And then I thought, well, if I'm going to do keynote speaking, I really want to be able to just talk to other people who've had a similar experience. learn from them also. So I started my podcast. And It goes into my story first as to the basics of what happened in my loss, but more importantly, I want to talk to other people to give them a space to talk about their own pregnancy loss and to understand also like what you're doing, how they learn to live and how they learn to thrive afterwards.

Mandy: 29:23

Wow. I think that's incredible. And, you know, one part of that, something that's definitely helped me in my process, and I can see it seems to be similar for you, but once you get to a point where you're feeling okay, and you are living your life, I think that process of giving back to the community that is behind you, so they are in new loss and, and in deep grief and really, you know, In that struggling phase that we have been through, I think there's an incredible power in giving back to that and finding ways to support people who are there because we know how hard it is. And so everything that you're doing, things that I'm doing, that is my way of saying, like, you can make it through this. I've made it through this and I'm going to try to reach a handout to those people who are there and help guide them forward. And I've seen a lot of people on this podcast who do similar things where you find purpose in, in helping others. And I think it's a, it's an important part of healing that we always see.

Kelila: 30:30

And it's interesting, because I always say, like, to my kids, it's sort of a, I say it on a lesser degree, because thank God they have pretty good lives, but whenever they tell me that they can't fall asleep at night, I say to them, has there ever been a night that you've ever stayed up all night? And it's sort of the same thing through survival. Has there ever been anything you haven't survived? Because otherwise you wouldn't be here. It's one of those where going through it is awful. And it's something where I've learned, you really have to feel the emotions. You can't just keep pushing them down because it's just going to make you feel worse. Not just emotionally, but physically I've seen it so many times where it's affected people in a physical way. And if you can really understand where your emotions are coming from and let them. Be what they will be. It will hurt in the moment, but it will feel so much better on the other side.

Mandy: 31:24

I love that. And I just have one more question for you. I'm thinking about the fact that you've been a surrogate twice and once was a successful pregnancy. And once you had this loss and it impacted both you and the birth parents. And so to anyone out there who's considering surrogacy, do you think your experience will scare people away from that experience? And what would you tell people who are considering surrogacy, knowing that any pregnancy has the possibility of ending in a pregnancy loss? And, and with your first experience, did it, do you still feel like it was worth what you had to put your body through and the emotional work that you had to do after your loss? What can you say to people who might consider being a surrogate?

Kelila: 32:10

I think that if, if you Do you love being pregnant? Then being a surrogate is one of the best things you could possibly do it. I don't look at it in any way, shape or form as something that I regret doing. I look at it as I brought a life into this world that has an amazing family that has an amazing loving home. I felt like I gave birth to my nephew and not my child. So it's a different relationship. And even after I had had the loss. I was still working through it with my husband and saying, you know, should we do surrogacy again? If they want me to be a surrogate and try one more time, is that possible? Emotionally, I think I'm okay with it, but I don't know if I'm ready for it. And like I said before, at the beginning, this journey was such a thing that I felt like was guided by the hand of God. But even as the last thing that the doctor said when they told me I actually wasn't allowed to be a surrogate anymore, I was like, you know what? That's a decision that I, that I feel like God is making the decision for me and saying that even if you know, you would want to, I think that it's, it's time to be okay with the fact that you're done. And so if anybody else ever has questions, I'm always here to answer questions about surrogacy. I think it's a beautiful gift. You can give to someone. I think that there's so many things, like I said before, that doctors understand about science. And yet there's so It's a vast, vast amount of knowledge that they have no clue on. And so if you're diagnosed with unknown infertility, you, you have no answers and you have nowhere to turn. And surrogacy is one of those that can give you something that you can't give yourself.

Mandy: 33:48

That's great. And actually that's the perfect segue to ask, how can people reach out to you? I know you said you don't mind people reaching out. So how can people reach out to you and what is the name of your podcast again, and any other information that you want to give listeners?

Kelila: 34:03

I am on all the socials and Instagram, it's actually my company name, so it's Ours and Yours. Ours is spelled normally O U R S A N D, but Yours is actually my daughter's initial, so it's Y R S.

Mandy: 34:16

Oh, cool.

Kelila: 34:17

Yeah, and then my my Facebook name is Kalila Beth Green, which is my name. My website is KalilaGreenspeaker. com. And the podcast is called Pushing Through Loss, and it's on all of the various different podcast forums, Spotify, Apple, all those good things.

34:36

I hope you felt inspired by Kalila's story and feel empowered to reach out to her directly for support. You may notice in your podcast app that we have a new feature called Fan Mail, where you can text the show with your questions, comments, or reactions. We'd love to hear from you, and we will reply in our next episode if you do. As always, thank you so much for listening. Please make sure you subscribe, share this episode with anyone who could benefit from it. And as always, visit RememberGrams anytime you need to send a little love to someone who is grieving. Thank you, and have a wonderful day.