Buried In Work (and Estate Planning) with Adam Zuckerman

Adam Zuckerman, founder of Buried In Work, joins us to talk about his father's death and his experience as the executor of his estate. This experience is what led Adam to shift careers and create Buried in Work, to help other families navigate this difficult task.  You can find out more about what they do at their website- www.buriedinwork.com

Transcript

Mandy: 0:00

Hello, and welcome back to the Grief Trails podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Kernighan from Remembergrams, a small business dedicated to helping you support those in your life experiencing grief. I hope you'll consider sending someone a personalized card or a grief support box. Shipping within the U. S. is always free, and we treat each order with special care, paying attention to every detail. Currently, Remember Graham's website is getting a facelift and we're hoping to make it even easier for you to support a grieving friend. But in the meantime, there may be some unplanned interruptions to the website while we migrate everything. If you have any difficulties at all, please email us at contactatremembergrams. com and thank you in advance for your patience and continued support. Today on the podcast, we are talking to Adam Zuckerman, an attorney, MBA, and Eisenhower fellow with a diverse professional background, Adam is also a son who lost his dad to cancer, and one of the eye opening parts of his grief was the complicated task of being executor of his dad's estate, leading him to found Buried in Work, an organization to provide resources and services to simplify estate planning, end of life tasks, and estate transitions. Adam is here today to talk about his dad and take a deep dive with us into the nuances of estate planning and how we can do better going forward. Let's take a listen.

Adam: 1:24

So it was an interesting experience for me and one that I was somewhat prepared for, but at the same point in time, not prepared for at all. My dad had cancer. He ended up passing away. After his leukemia came back for a third time, which is kind of crazy. And in between that, he had skin cancer, he had another cancer, he beat everything. But it's, it's somewhat strange. When he was first diagnosed, you know, your world completely just is turned upside down. You have no idea what's going on, first time. Everybody hears stories, and if you can relate, I'm sure that other people that are listening can relate, likely. That when people find out that somebody that's close to you has cancer or even if you have cancer suddenly you start hearing all of these stories. This impacted this person, this person, this person, that waterfall effect.

Mandy: 2:15

Yeah.

Adam: 2:15

It became even more personal for me in some ways because I was very fortunate in that I was a bone marrow match for my father.

Mandy: 2:23

Oh wow.

Adam: 2:25

About six and a half years before he passed away, I had the surgery and donated bone marrow. There's only a 30 percent chance, give or take, that you're actually a match for one of your parents. I was that match and it worked. So it was absolutely fantastic.

Mandy: 2:40

And was that a difficult decision for you? I've heard that bone marrow At least collecting bone marrow cells can be very painful. Did that go, like, what was that process like for you considering getting tested and then when you realize you're a match, knowing that you're going to be a donor?

Adam: 2:56

Yeah, if they said you had to donate your leg, it would have been a non question for me. But it's still an exciting and scary, you know, situation. There's different ways you can donate bone marrow now. If you're listening, go and register on the BeAMatch site. Awesome if you get selected. Or there's one where you pretty much just have two big needles in you and then spin it out and everything's good. For the type of bone marrow that my dad had for whatever reason I wasn't a candidate for the easy bone marrow So I actually had to be put under anesthesia. I had 350 sticks in my back And my pelvis and effectively it's like a big needle goes in they pull it out a little bit there's some bone marrow in there, they put it into a petri dish effectively, and I'm simplifying. But then they have to go back in and move it around, because if you go back in, you get blood that refilled the area beneath the marrow. It was painful, it was exhausting my entire back was all bruised, and I did not consider not doing it for a moment. And, like, yes, if we can make this work, we can make it work. Which is really funny because the recipient, it's a really easy procedure for them. It's just, so he got the, he got the good end of the stick on that day. But you know, we, we're very fortunate. We got some extra time. And one of the things that I actually take joy in the most, and if my sisters are listening, you know, they're going to bring this up later. So hi, Julian, Lori. One of the best effects of that is my dad was able to have a better relationship with my nieces and nephews. So one of my sisters had two younger kids and they were at the age when everything started happening that they were really young they probably wouldn't remember and now they literally have great memories of vacations with my dad.

Mandy: 4:40

What a gift.

Adam: 4:42

My mom has joked that after that first surgery my dad and I got closer. I got to joke that he kept me around for spare parts. But helping actually turned into something that was really sad because the second time his leukemia came back and meant that his leukemia had mutated. And my bone marrow that was in him could no longer attack or fight his new leukemia, which meant I was basically useless from a medical standpoint. So it went from, you can do a lot, you can help out, let's try it, it worked, great, to, oh no, there's nothing you can do anymore. And then you just start thinking and going down that rabbit hole of, what happens next? And that's where we ended up most recently on his last batch, which we can talk about if that's of interest.

Mandy: 5:28

Yeah, I'd love to hear how that progressed for you. I think it's fascinating that you were able to have that experience of really being the person who contributed to extending his life. And I can only imagine how that helped your relationship or maybe created a special sort of bond between the two of you that other people might not. necessarily understand because there's something so unique about giving a part of yourself to someone else and having that be the reason that, that they are able to be there with you a little bit longer.

Adam: 6:00

Yeah, I think that we did have a special bond in some ways. I joked with him oftentimes that he just kept me around for spare parts. If I can tease him a little bit, I would. And he's got a very good, warm, punny sense of humor. It actually led to the endeavor that I'm working in now. Like the name of Barry didn't work is because it's punny. But, he was over at my house. We were working on something in my basement. And he walked up the stairs and he said, Adam, I'm tired. And if you say you're tired, if I say I'm tired, it's normally, Hey, I want to go take a nap. My dad to say I'm tired. He didn't complain about very much other than, you know, zucchini and mushrooms. And his food. It meant something was wrong. So I went to the doctor. My wife and I went out to dinner, actually it was a brunch, with my mom and my dad. And I remember leaving and I said, this might be the last meal that we have with my dad. Because he was waiting for that time period of results. Like just, I just felt like something was off. He looked a little bit yellow. He checked in the hospital and this is accelerating things, but went to the doctor, checked in the hospital, and twelve days later he passed away.

Mandy: 7:08

Wow.

Adam: 7:09

Yeah. So, really, really quickly in some ways, we're very lucky. He was with it until the end, until the last day or so. The family got to fly in, we got to say goodbyes. It's a very different situation than if somebody just doesn't wake up in their sleep. But still, it was too soon. And I was executor in the will and my mom was still around and the next thing I knew is while he was organized, while he thought he was organized, he could have been a lot more organized. And that was part of my, my grief experience was let's get everything as organized as possible, not only for him, but for my family, for my mom. And that's really what turned in the whole buried in work, you know, experience for me. It's kind of crazy.

Mandy: 7:59

Yeah, you know, I think the experience of being an executor of a will is something people almost never talk about and I have not been the executor, but my father has been the executor of several of our close family members who have passed away. And it is sometimes a burden almost on the person, it can feel like a huge responsibility. And I love that you are. Trying to do something to help that scenario and help people through that because it's so not talked about. Can you share a little bit about your experience with being an executor and what came with that?

Adam: 8:38

Yeah, I can, and I'll give a little bit of context to help people understand what an executor is. So I'm an attorney, I have an MBA, which is a somewhat unique background and positioned me fairly well to handle this type of exercise. Everybody in America has an estate plan, whether you recognize it or not, and what I mean by that is if you don't have a will, if you don't have a trust, which is okay in some circumstances, many circumstances, it just means that when you pass away, the state, the government, is going to dictate what happens. And it's called interstate. But! If you want to be a little bit more proactive, there are steps that you can take, like having a will utilizing different mechanisms to make it easier on your heir as your executor to carry out what your wishes are. So, really what a estate plan does is it says, this is what I want to have happen to my stuff after I pass away, and before I pass away, this is what I want to have happen to me if I can't. advocate on my own behalf. An executor is the individual that is designated in that will to carry out your wishes within the guidelines of the local jurisdiction. And what I don't think a lot of people realize is that the average estate in the United States takes 570 hours to administer as an executor. And I don't know about you, but most people don't have a spare 570 hours laying around over the next year or two. And there's obviously quick ways that you can handle small estates. It gets more complicated as estates grow in complexity, family sizes grow and whatnot. But for me, I was going through the process of literally tracking every single thing that I did. Almost to the level of being a bit too comprehensive. And when I showed my mom's estate planner what I was working on, she said it was the most comprehensive plan she'd ever seen. And it wasn't just for me, I wanted my mom to see, hey, this is what I've done, in case she had any questions. And also, hey mom, I'm doing a lot for you, just leave me alone. And also I wanted my sisters to be able to see what was going on if they asked to. My family's pretty close, so that's not a problem with anybody. And when I left, I showed a few people what I was working on, and resounding, You know, response was, I want this as well. I have to go through this. And I started learning about the stats in the United States and it got kind of scary. Every single day, 10, 000 people turn 65, which means that by the end of the decade, more people are going to be 65. Than under 65, and the number of people 65 and over are going to double. Largest wealth transfer in history is about to happen. Some people say up to 80 something trillion dollars over the next 20 or 30 years. And what made it really personal for me, was that I found out that women on average outlive their male husbands by an average of 5. 8 years. Which means if you look at these traditional family values, there's an entire generation of women that are about to find themselves, and obviously I don't say an entire generation. I mean in some circumstances, in many circumstances, but there are plenty of women out there that are far more financially adept than their, their spouses. But by and large, there are a lot of people that are about to find themselves in situations where, you know, they're unfamiliar and the time to learn is not when you're grieving. The time to learn is not when you're stressed out. So The time to learn is not when it's the most important time to learn and the takeaway for me there was do everything you can possible to help people create their estate plans, get organized, inform their children of what they need and answer questions before they need to, because that 570 hours can be drastically reduced. And that's, that's where I've been spending my time since my dad passed.

Mandy: 12:20

You're so right, So many executors are people who, A, may have zero experience ever dealing with something like this. They're also grieving on top of it. And, They're often surrounded by a family who is grieving, which often leads to tension and conflict. So, that is all a recipe for disaster if people are unprepared for what is to come and there's no communication beforehand. So tell me, what does Buried and Work offer to people? Like, at what stage do people get in touch with you? How does that work? How does that work?

Adam: 12:54

Okay we offer a lot. We're doing a lot. It's not just me, there's a lot of people that are involved in various capacities. Think of it in three buckets. So your buckets is estate preparation organization, end of life tasks, and estate transition and probate. We have resources for do it yourselfers, so those are checklists, those are guides, they're articles, they're quizzes, they're directories for service providers. Literally, it goes as detailed as, if you are planning a end of life Funeral, or interested in Andalite traditions for Hindus, for Christians, for Muslims, for LGBTQ for secular. Like, we've got guides, and we've taken those and made them into chat GPTs, so you can have conversations with them if you want. We have card games. So, one stemmed out of my father, a conversation with him, with all the family members in the room, where we were just telling stories. Tell us one more story about. So now we have 126. cards with phrases and questions on it that you can have these really fun Conversations with your loved ones family or friends to capture those memories before they're gone. We've got one that is a game called nothing left unsaid and it's more on the estate preparation side Do you have a will do you have a trust because a lot of people they don't answer these questions and The challenge that we found is that you're about to send your family on a scavenger hunt if they don't know what's going on You And the analogy is if I invited you over to my house to bake a cake and I had all the ingredients that we've discussed in the recipe and we knew what we were doing, we're going to make the cake but it's going to be pretty efficient. But if I invite you over to my house to make a cake and you show up and I go you're making a cake But then I can't talk to you and I just leave you in the kitchen But you don't know that my flour is locked in a safe in the basement that you didn't even know existed It's gonna be a little bit more difficult for you. So we've got a bunch of products do it yourselfers also products for people that need that guided approach like the estate preparation package and It really is that fill in the blank, you know, this is exactly what you need So if something were to happen to you not just passing away, but incapacitation Temporary or long term your family really has All of the information that they need at their fingertips so they can hop in and do do. Do

Mandy: 15:05

you offer education for people about A, why it's important to have these types of documents ahead of time, who needs them, what should be included? I work at a hospital and we often see patients who come in at end of life. I work in a palliative care unit and we have to ask, is your loved one, if the person is incapacitated and they can't answer for themselves, but are they married and sometimes people will say no, because they've been separated for 20 years, but in our state, at least, and I don't know if it's the same in every state, it doesn't matter if you're not legally divorced, if you don't fill out a specific paper, the state will consider that spouse to be your next of kin, whether you, would never want that in your life or not. And so I think these are like the little things that people don't realize until they're in that moment. And sometimes it can be too late. And then the person who you don't want, or say you're estranged from your children and they're the next of kin legally. Do you go through and like educate people on these types of topics?

Adam: 16:06

We, we do on a lot of them. We have an entire guide to hospice and palliative care. We've worked with palliative nurses and experts to come up with our games. second game that we had, actually both of them, reviewed by two clinical psychologists. So you can certainly come and learn. And then what's really unique about what we're trying to put together and are putting together, and it's a growing, you know, repository of information, is not just the information itself, but the impact. So if you get the estate preparation package, it comes with an annual review checklist that's a bound, packet. And it says check this, check this, check this, and here's why. And there's a lot of things like just like what you just mentioned that unless somebody tells you there's no reason for you to know Ah I had a conversation with somebody, this is an example I'd like to, to bring up, where he was married, he has two children, he lives in Virginia, he got a divorce, and he updated his will. So 50 percent went to each of his two children. And he asked what we could do for him. And I said, well, here's a few things, xyz, by the way, have you updated your payable and death beneficiaries on your bank accounts? Side note, if you do that, it helps you avoid probate, if that's something you want to do. But the answer was, no, I haven't, but it doesn't matter, I updated my will. And what he was saying and didn't realize it, is that if he got in a car accident and passed away, his ex wife, who is still the payable on death beneficiary, would receive all of his cash from his bank account. Or bank accounts that she was listed as because that's a contractual relationship. It gets processed before you're, and the kids would get the remainder. So there's a lot of things that we're trying to help people understand and wrap their head around. Not just today, but for down the road. Because estate planning really is, you're planning today for tomorrow, but it has to evolve into the future. And you have to revisit. And we're helping people understand this is what you need to do, this is when you do it. And that's why we have a lot of our checklists. So it's, here's the steps that you can take before somebody passes away. Here are the specific steps you can take after somebody passes away. Like, I didn't think that somebody would have to go to a house if they were alone to water plants and secure things because people are watching the news to scam you and different things. Like really neat, nuanced things that just people don't think about. We're collecting a massive amount of information to make it easier on other people.

Mandy: 18:22

Yeah. And the amount of forms that you need and the specifics that go into each one are so complicated for the average person who isn't dealing with this, this realm every day. example, a healthcare proxy, people don't realize that that ends the moment the person dies. And once. Once the person dies, you are no longer have control over anything legally, just if you're relying on that one piece of paper. So for people to understand, like, the nuances of power of attorney and healthcare proxy and executor and all of the different roles that you can play. It's so complex and I feel for people who are sort of thrown in with a sudden death and have no idea what they're getting into.

Adam: 19:04

Yeah, it's it's confusing advanced directives. They mean different things in different states and we help people understand That's just an umbrella term. You got your living will which is non binding You have an ethical will you have your health care proxy like you said, which you know goes into your power of attorney That's medical your power of attorney. That's financial and you're right A lot of people don't realize The minute that a financial power of attorney ends is the minute that person passes away and same with medical,

Mandy: 19:29

right?

Adam: 19:29

so You have to educate people not only on what those documents are, but the people that have those powers, they also have to be aware of it. And then they have to be aware that you can also revoke it. And there's a ton of information that, that wraps all of that. The, the POST, P O L S T, which is portable portable medical orders. Those are binding. People get confused at what a DNR is. Is it a medical order from a doctor? Or this is what I want to have happen when I'm not resuscitated. And then all of your information, and this is really what takes the most time to do is gathering it. You've got to gather information on your family members and that includes your pets, your citizenship information, your identifications, your career and education history, your residential history, your digital legacy now, which is really neat. Now if you have email, what do you want to have happen to those emails? What about the photos on your phone, the videos, your Facebook account?

Mandy: 20:21

That's fascinating. Yeah, I hadn't even thought of that,

Adam: 20:25

right? There's so much that goes into it. And that's what we're doing is we're collecting these resources so when something happens, come to us. We'll help you out. Hopefully you're organized beforehand and if not, we're going to make it a little bit easier for you. That's

Mandy: 20:38

great. Do you provide specific advice based on the state that people are living in?

Adam: 20:43

Yeah, so we've got articles that are state specific based on tags. We just completed the first round of a review of all 50 states to what makes a will legal. So a will in one state might not be legal in another state based on how it was created and what's in it. Is it recognized from another area or not? So we're saying that's what has to go in, but it's not just us. We're actually partnering with subject matter experts, like attorneys in the various States who know their jurisdiction really specifically. So if it is really legal, you come to us, you get a high level understanding, and then we kick you over to a service provider. You find a service provider in the directory or otherwise where you live. Because that's really the level of service that we want you to have. We won't make your will for you. We won't make your trust for you. People have asked us do any answers. We don't want to, that's not what we're doing. We want you to have all of your information organized. When you go to attorneys, when you go and make your own will, you're going to be more efficient and it's going to save you money in the long run.

Mandy: 21:39

That sounds like an incredible service and something clearly needed based on the statistics that you shared and just life experience, I think anyone who's been through grief knows that this is a service that could really benefit people because I would. That the majority of families are. Sort of wading through unknown waters when this happens and trying to figure it out as they go. And so I know, even just as a family member who has lost close family members, for myself now, you know, I have kids and it's important for us, even as young people, if, you know, Not that I'm that young, but, you know, even if you're at an age where you think like, oh, I'm fine, I have years before I need to think about estate planning, we don't ever know what we have. And so this applies to literally every adult out there that we could all benefit from something like this. Where can people come across more information from you and find

Adam: 22:39

you? Very easy to find us. www. buriedinwork. com It's a bit funny. We'll have a podcast out soon. We've got games that you can find online. Soon those will be on Amazon and a few other places. But come to buriedinwork. com We'd love to hear from you. A lot of information there. And if there's something that you need that you don't see, let us know, maybe we'll make it for you.

Mandy: 23:01

Well, thank you, Adam. I really appreciate you sharing your story with me. And I sometimes like to reflect on my podcast. The reason I named it Grief Trails is because I think so many people have a story where Their life is going in a certain direction, and then grief came into their life, and the direction that we have taken shifts into something new, and often that looks, it looks different for everyone, but sometimes it's a new business, it's a new, it's a new passion, or it's a new Endeavor that you're creating, and I can definitely see that in your life. And so, I don't know, I'm just curious. Do you ever think about like the before and after for you and how drastically your life has changed in response to your father's death and you know, what he might think about what you're doing now?

Adam: 23:54

Absolutely. Two years ago. I was literally living on planes. I was in 54 flights in one year, mostly international. I was meeting prime ministers, ministers of energy, and CEOs of companies. And now I work from Maryland. I don't travel as much. I've never been happier making a impact not only for individuals because we're helping out direct to consumer and then we also have businesses that are working with us as well. So HR benefits and attorneys and tax prep people, a bunch of others are buying these for their clients as well. So the impact of what I'm doing is completely different. And if someone asked me a year and a half, three, four or five years ago, whenever, are you going to be in the death tech industry? My answer is no. But what I'm finding is, is just such a rewarding and a, a supportive community. I flew out to Iowa and I went to the funeral director associations conference just to really get in the middle of things. And I have never met a more welcoming group of individuals with a unique story in my entire life. And I think that's what's really neat about this is it's an entire path that I didn't expect to be on. And my best friend, I think said it best. There's nothing that would have made your dad happier knowing that you are helping people making money off of his death. And a little bit of a tongue twister. Bye. I can't, I can't help but agree.

Mandy: 25:25

I love that. I love that when I saw the name of your company, it made me giggle a little. It's definitely nice to have a sense of humor when it's such a serious topic. And I, I just love to see people who have gotten to the other side because I think when we're in the midst of grief and sadness and really feeling the weight of what we're losing, It can be hard to imagine that our lives are going to get to a place where we feel fulfilled. From something that really stemmed from something so hard and terrible. And so I just appreciate getting to see you and see how happy you are in your new endeavor and what you're doing. And knowing that that came from something really hard because I think it's important for listeners to know that if they're in the hard part that things can get better from here.

Adam: 26:14

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Mandy: 26:16

Is there anything else that we didn't talk about that you wanted to add?

Adam: 26:20

No, I think that's it. And everybody come to barryandwork. com get the estate preparation package or at least read about it. Just like Amanda said, you know, things can happen at any time, and trust me, if you're organized today, it is going to make things so much easier on you, your family, your loved ones later, because the last thing you want to do is what I was doing in a hotel room, or a hospital room, rather. I wish it was a hotel room. In a hospital room, asking about policies because your dad was trying to, like, wrap things up. Spend time with your loved ones when you can, and not when you have to.

Mandy: 26:53

I hope you enjoyed listening to Adam's story and find his resources helpful for you or someone you know. His website is linked in the show notes. You may notice that our podcast has a new feature called Fan Mail, where you can text the show with your questions, comments, or reactions. We would love to hear from you, and we will reply in our next episode if you do. As always, thank you so much for listening. Please make sure you subscribe, share this episode with anyone who could benefit from it, and as always, Visit RememberGrams anytime you need to send a little love to someone who is grieving. Stay tuned for our updated website, and thank you. Have a wonderful day.